Healthcare Professionals Governance – A Must-Know Guide with Sarah Tribe

Katie Bell: 0:02

You’re listening to treat your business with Katie Bell, the podcast for health and wellness business owners that want a need to give their business the treatment plan, it needs a treatment plan that will create more time back in your life, more income and more confidence when it comes to running your business. I’m here to share with you bite sized episodes full of tried and tested tips from my own real experience of growing a successful physiotherapy and wellness clinic. And from working with many businesses to do the same. The treat your business podcast is sponsored by hm DG. Marketing is always one of the top three issues for clinic owners that I speak to. It’s too expensive and complicated. They’ve had issues in the past, or they just don’t know where to find a trusted expert. It’s always said only recommend products or services, you’re confident in using yourself. Well, when it comes to marketing, we use HMD G for our own clinic. They’ve proven to be exactly what you’d want from an agency. As a specialist, they understand the industry. They’re responsive and always deliver. We can’t recommend them highly enough. Head to HMD g.co.uk To find out more. Hello there listeners. And welcome to this week’s episode of the treat your business podcast with your host Katie bell. And I’m really excited to be joined by Sarah from the haich C P. G. Sarah, thank you very much for giving up your time to come and talk to our listeners about all things policies in that in their businesses.

Sarah Tribe: 1:31

Thank you very much for asking me, Katie. It’s really, really nice to be here. Yeah, so would you just introduce myself shayad tell say a little bit about myself.

Katie Bell: 1:43

You will do a much better job than me. So

Sarah Tribe: 1:45

failure. Alright, so I’m Sarah tribe. I’m one of the founding members of HCP G, which is healthcare professionals governance. It’s Sandra Harding. And I set it up about 2017 2018. In response, really, to us working together in a big corporate where we audited a lot of private practice clinics. And we found that physios didn’t know what they didn’t know. And there was a lot of unconscious incompetence out there. So we set up this business to help physios and latterly we’re also working with stos and chiropractors. I’m a clinician I’m a physio by background. I mainly worked in inpatients when I was a clinician, I helped reduce the length of stay for Orthopaedics for hips and knees. And then I, I left, just before we were setting up with Sandra, and I actually went and ran a care home, I was a registered manager of a care home. So I took it from requires improvement to good and work very closely with the CQC. So I’m very aware of their processes and what they look for when they come in. And if we were ever inspected as physios, which would take a change in the law, but it is about you know very much about evidence, and have you got it, and they’re not woolly at all. Yes. So then I left there and then sold when I set up our company.

Katie Bell: 3:09

And it is fabulous, because I first came across you it was sometime last year, wasn’t it, Sarah, and we did a and you very kindly did a webinar where we had it within our, in our community and people, lots of people attended because they were very interested in as you really kind of explained well is that we know what we know. But we don’t know what we don’t know. And I know as a physiotherapist and clinic owner myself, I don’t know it all. Still in terms of governance and policies and making sure that I’m crossing every T and dotting every I. But what your company does so wonderfully, is just take all of that stress out of it for you.

Sarah Tribe: 3:48

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, the standards, the HCPC standards, and now they’re just updating them in September. And the CSP, quality assurance standards are really good. You know, they’re really good. But unfortunately, people don’t know sometimes how to interpret them, and how to evidence them. And so that’s where we come in and really help to show how you evidence the stuff. And it’s this is the state CPC in September is going to be very much more about evidencing not just being able to know, but you have to be able to evidence Yeah,

Katie Bell: 4:21

which is as a busy clinic owner, and as a business owner. The responsibility in the book falls with you, but it doesn’t, isn’t naturally sometimes in our unique brilliance to have all of this level of detail ironed out and to really spend that time on it.

Sarah Tribe: 4:39

Exactly. Exactly. It’s a bit like you know, physios aren’t health and safety experts. You know, you’re not you know, you’re not business experts, you have to get that help. And this is the this is much the same you know, you know, your, you know, physios are brilliant at treating patients and they love treating patients. So do what you love and by in the people that can come and help you. And actually, you know, you don’t need to spend hours and hours trawling through the standards, you can if you want, but it’s taken us, it took us a year to actually get all the questions for our audit. And all the evidence took us a year. So you know, it is a huge time consuming thing. And physios don’t have the time. They’re too busy treating patients, which is what they really enjoy. So that’s where Sandra and I come in, we do have everything that complies with the standards. So if you were interested, you just go on our store and see it and we run lots of courses and we really trying to help physios to understand Yeah,

Katie Bell: 5:38

and you definitely do that. So Sarah, we I’ve asked you to kind of talk a little bit more around informed consent today, because there’s so many avenues we could go down, but we’re going to kind of go down the informed consent route. So what is the biggest gaps that you see in clinics, or as business owners around informed consent?

Sarah Tribe: 6:02

The biggest thing that we see is that physios think that by asking the patient at love first assessment, when they first come in, they sign the sheet to saying I consent to treatment signed, dated. That’s it, it’s absolutely not, it would not stand up in a court of law, because what are they actually signing for, they don’t know what treatment they’re going to have. They don’t know what you’re going to do to them, they haven’t, you know, you haven’t explained the risks and benefits, you know, they have a right to say no as well. So you don’t need to be getting them to actually sign for written consent, you can get consent for your T’s and C’s and your cancellation policy, and you’re keeping financial details, all of that that’s absolutely fine, but you do not need it for informed consent. And I think that’s probably the biggest thing that we see. For informed consent to be truly informed. You need to have a policy and you need to have a process. So it’s not no good just getting an informed consent policy, sticking it on a shelf, sticking it on a drive and never actually reading and understanding it. It’s with the one that we have, which is not the centre and Sandra show is very much the HCPC. And the CSP standards. So the one we have is about I think it’s about 10 or 11 pages, a lot of reading, which is why we talk about it when we do our work in private practice course we we try and break it down a little bit more. But you need to have the policy, you need to have a patient information leaflet that you send out before you even see that patient that starts your process of informed consent. So that they know they may need to get undressed. They know that they can ask any questions, and they know that they can refuse treatment. So they already know before they set foot in your clinic that they have what to expect and that they have rights. And then people don’t you need to document in your notes so that if a if it went to a court of law, and if it was if you were if somebody complained and said you never gain consent, I never consented for that. They will look into your notes in great detail. And they will also look what processes and professional evidence you have. So you would say I’ve got this informed consent policy which I’ve read and fully understand. I’ve got a patient information leaflet, which I send out, you’re already showing that you’ve got that portfolio of evidence. And going forward, it also means that you need to understand capacity, you need to understand the three stage test for mental capacity. So if you have somebody who’s frail elderly, or somebody with learning disabilities or whatever, you know how to try and get consent, you can’t blanketly say they don’t have capacity that says I’m not going to try it you have to try because people with dementia will have fluctuating capacity. They will have periods of the day when they’re completely with it and can actually be able to understand what you’re saying, retain it and weigh it up and communicate their response. So you need to try so suppose you have a frail, elderly, get them in in the morning. They’re better in the mornings, get them out, give them a morning appointment, not an evening one because they go downhill and that sun goes down. They become much more confused and much more disorientated so you have to do your very best to gain consent from them. And then understanding that if they can’t consent and you’ve decided that they really can’t then you need to go down the power of attorney for health and well being and make sure that that person attends the appointment with them because they can consent on their behalf. Because power of attorney is about that that patient the lady or gentleman will have will have asked Somebody that they really respect and no family member friend that they know will have their best interests at heart. So that’s why you get a power of attorney. So that’s really quite often not understood. And also the huge one, if you treat children is who can consent. So it’s really understanding about 16 and 17 year olds can consent and don’t need the parental consent, okay? Give us Gillick competency, children, children, 14 to 16, who are Guillet competent, and can actually fulfil that three stage tests of understanding weighing it up and being able to communicate, they can consent. They don’t need to have their parent or caregiver with them. So anybody under on that cusp under Thirteen’s, you know, but and also if if you deem as a physiotherapist, it’s up to you to deem whether the person is going to competent or not, no, you’re not going to have a piece of paper that comes in with them, it says this child has got it competent, you need to decide as a professional. And if you decide that they aren’t, then you need to go down parental consent. And that is a minefield, because who can have who can give parental consent. And who can’t is a huge thing. There is on our store, there’s a big a4 sheet about it. But you know, for example, step parents don’t automatically have the right to give consent, even if they’re married to the mother. So there is an granny certainly can’t give consent if granny brings in the child. And granny certainly can’t. So you need to make sure that that when the child first comes, the correct person comes with them, who’s able to consent, Granny can come the next step time and the time after that. But if you change your treatment, you need to go back to get consent again. So those are the big things that come up that the physios you know, really, you can see, they’re quite surprised by that. And they hadn’t really sort of thought about that. So it is it’s a big, big thing about informed consent. And that’s one of the things that go to the HCPC one of the things that they get a lot of fitness the practices around not gaining informed consent.

Katie Bell: 12:09

And I think just just listening to you there, Sarah, it almost creates that feeling. And we have worked with you. So we know that we’ve got ours in place, and we’ve got a patient information leaflet, and we think we do what we should do. And it’s it’s making me think as a business owner again, okay to wanting to go back to because it can feel overwhelming, it can create anxiety in the business owners clontech.

Sarah Tribe: 12:35

Yes, of course, absolutely. And one of the things that when we work with people when we start working with people, and we have a policy, guidance, membership, which is that we always start and they always go, Oh my God, I feel so overwhelmed. I don’t know where to start. It’s so normal. And it’s so usual. And by the time they work with us for a year, and they’ve got all their policies, and they understand all their policies, and they got all the associated documentation, which is really important to have as well. It’s not enough just to have the policy. They go, Wow, I feel so much better. I really understand now what’s expected of me what you know, I feel I’m running a safe clinic, I feel it’s safe for me, for the patience for the staff. And so that feeling of overwhelm, can make you want to go and bury your head in the sand, I just can’t cope with this. It’s too much we’re not inspected. Nobody’s ever going to come in, I’ll just, I just won’t worry about it, you come and see us because we will hold your hand and we will help you. And by the end of that year, you will have got everything in place. And you will be feeling so much better and proud, proud that you have.

Katie Bell: 13:48

And it’s one of those areas as a business owner, as you said, it’s easy to bury your head in the sand. But that in itself creates more anxiety because you know, you should be doing something about it. And there are people like you who can go and literally guide you from start to finish. You don’t have to figure any of this stuff out, which I think is sometimes we think we should be the people to do this as a business owner. We should know it. Well, we shouldn’t because we’re not we’re not experts. We’re not you know, talking to you. There’s things that you say things Wow, that that I didn’t know that. But you don’t have to know it.

Sarah Tribe: 14:22

You don’t have to know you don’t have to know anything until you don’t know something till you’re taught it. So yeah, absolutely. And we’re not taught this when we train, you’re not taught this isn’t doesn’t this doesn’t come as part of our training. Batch like running a business doesn’t come as part of our training. This is all stuff that you have to learn. But you do sign that that that form every two years the HCPC you stick you tick that box which says that you want to re register and that you will abide by all the standards and regulations. So there is an expectation on registrants to find out about this stuff. Even if you think I don’t know where to sell it, well go and find out, go and go and get some help much like you would with HR, much like you would with business coaching about running a business, go and find out come to us, we are the only people who are doing this at the moment, I’m sure other people will, will will join us join in the band that you know, join instead of another company, but it is only US at the moment. So come see us and we can really help you. And also we have a store which you can go on and use as a resource. So you can look at it there. All right, I need to have one of those one of those one of those, you can go and do it yourself absolutely fine. But if you’re thinking about writing a policy, it takes, I would say, having written them, it takes a good four or five solid days of reading, researching, writing, yeah, making sure that it’s all the same font all looks the same. Now, if you want to go and do that, as a clinic owner, that’s absolutely fine. But wouldn’t you rather go and earn the money to pay us it’s 80 pounds for a policy to earn 80 pounds to come and get it and it comes with a call. So we call with you and we talk it through. And you can go and treat your patients. So you know your you know physios are time poor, it don’t particularly like admin as a role. And there are some sad ones like me who absolutely loves it. But they don’t like this, they’re also outsource it, outsource it. But it’s not a case, what we don’t want to do is just say, Write, have a policy, stick it on your shelf, you’ve got your policy, we’re not about that. There are you know, and cutting and pasting does not work. And spreading and sharing policy does not work. It’s your policy. It’s your we work with you. So you understand it and you embed it. And then it’s a framework of your business. And once you’ve got all your policies in place, you’ve got a really solid foundation and a solid base to work

Katie Bell: 17:00

from and to actually to sleep at night.

Sarah Tribe: 17:04

To sleep at night. Yeah, that’s what a lot of our physio says is finding the I can sleep when I’m not working out together. Haven’t got that haven’t got that. I don’t know where to get that. Oh, and we’re really at risk. They really feel very vulnerable and very Yeah, absolutely.

Katie Bell: 17:18

So with informed consent, you’ve touched on a few points there. And perhaps you could you could expand on them. Or you could just repeat them so we can understand what are the myths or their kind of misled assumptions around informed consent?

Sarah Tribe: 17:35

That you just need to get written that the patient’s sign this form to say that you consent to treatment, right? I’ve got it, I’ve got consent, I’ve got informed and that’s that’s fine. It absolutely isn’t, you need to have a policy, you need to have a patient information leaflet. And you need to understand that because the Montgomery in the Bolam standard, the Bolon, we all use AI, the Bolam standard was the standard. But now it’s the Montgomerie standard that we adhere to. And that means that you have to tell the patient everything. You can’t just decide well, I won’t tell them that I won’t tell them that. It’s like now doctors and surgeons when they when people go for surgery, they have to tell them there’s a risk of death before they try not to because they wouldn’t want to worry them but they absolutely have to tell them there is a risk of death. And it’s the same with any treatments that physios do, you need to say about risks and benefits. Now that can be really time consuming. And a lot of people said you have to write down that down every single time, there are going to be certain things that you say all the time, post treatment soreness day to day, get an a4 sheet, write down the risks, write down the benefits. Yeah, think about it, write them all down. And that is your sheet that you will give to a patient and say, while I’m just getting my bits together, have a read of that and have it in if you have any questions, I’m here, done. And then you can put in your in notes, risks and benefits sheet given. Yeah, there’s your evidence.

Katie Bell: 19:13

And so this if because most of us are now using online notes, so would you then document you know, I’ve seen lots of like VCO verbal consent obtained and those sorts of words. So is Is it enough to say at the beginning of the session that you’ve gone through the rest of the benefits of the treatment, or you’ve explained you’re just right, you’ve explained the treatment process and consent has been given?

Sarah Tribe: 19:37

Yeah, so you can use VCO verbal consent obtained. The difficulty with that is that is supposing in five years time, somebody complained and said, I You didn’t I didn’t that I don’t feel that I gave consent, right. They looked at your notes. Remember that you were not up in court. Your notes are sent with your subject, they could request a subject matter request. So you’ve abbreviations have gone with them, they’ll look at the notes and they will decide. So if you’ve written risks and benefits explained, consent and consent given their thing would be what are the what have you explained? So if you’ve got a sheet that you version control, and you make sure it’s state, because you may, you know, you need to, they want to see what you told them at the time, not what you’re telling them now, your patients, but what you told them at that time. So you find that sheet that you’ve archived, because you may have moved on. And you say, and that sheet goes with the notes. And that’s what they were told. And they will, you’re a professional in your own right. And they are, they will look favourably on a professional, they will, you know, if you can show that you’re really abiding, and you’ve got lots of professional and you’ve got a portfolio of evidence, they will believe you

Katie Bell: 20:54

just just blows my mind. So it really does. And so another myth that you mentioned was that granny can’t consent on the initial appointment for for that course of treatment, if the treatment was to change, you’d have to get new informed consent of the and is it off the parent, a parent? Or what’s the

Sarah Tribe: 21:18

softer person who can give parental consent? So that’s why you really need to know about same sex couples can give it providing they were married at the time of the child’s birth. And there’s it there is a sheet I don’t have it all in my head because it is so detailed. Yeah. But it is definitely you need to find out who is actually allowed to give consent for that child. And the thing is that if you have a child coming in, and they arrive with somebody, you’re that in the embarrassing situation of well, can this person consent? And I don’t know who they are? Are they the step parent are they you know, so it’s much easier. If you’ve got, if you’re treating children, you have that first appointment, when you send out your information, leaflets, send out that other sheet as well that you’ve got written down about who can give consent, and just say, Please, can you make sure that the correct person comes with this child so that they can consent, and then you’ve, you’ve got rid of all that potential embarrassment,

Katie Bell: 22:22

that’s, that’s a great idea. And in terms of the patient information leaflet, we, we would send us out with the booking. So it goes out when people confirm the booking and correct me if I’m wrong, Sarah, but I remember you saying on our last webinar, that that is where technically that element of your responsibility and so as long as you have sent it, if they choose to not read it, that that is not your responsibility, but you have to make sure that if they’ve not got the capacity to read it. So for example, if we have an elderly client coming into the clinic, and we know that they, they they may not have given us an email address, so they won’t have an email conversation. But confirmation, we have a laminated copy of our patient information leaflet, and that’s given to them on arrival. And they’re asked to read through it before they then go, you know, into their treatment is Am I right in that in the way that that setup that once you’ve got your payment solution flip you email,

Sarah Tribe: 23:24

you need to be able to evidence that you’ve sent it and you need to be able to evidence that you have and that comes very much into these new standards about centralising patient at the centre of everything. So there is something about you can give them a laminated sheet when they come in to read. However, it’s too late them then for them to be wearing suitable underwear. So there will be something about you know, really crossing your T’s and dotting your eyes is about sending them something in the post. So they can read it before they come in so that they know they may need to get undressed, and then they can wear what they need to wear. And madly

Katie Bell: 24:05

scribbling that down Sarah because I like to be very transparent on this podcast with my listeners. I definitely don’t think we do that.

Sarah Tribe: 24:12

And it’s just that they’re a captive audience. When they go through to the physio, they you’ve told them that they can absolutely ask any questions and refuse but they may have come in in inappropriate underwear and they may be embarrassed. Yeah.

Katie Bell: 24:26

Yeah. Okay. That’s an amazing tip. So, we kind of, I guess we understand that what informed consent should look should actually look like and the things that we we can potentially start putting in place in our clinic. So just to be clear, having a patient information leaflet that that dictates the that you may be asked to undress so please wear suitable underwear that you can refuse treatment that you will be taken through the rest of the benefits of any treatment that is that is planned for you Making sure that we cover all bases, if they, if they are somebody that hasn’t received that by by email, or we know we haven’t collected an email address, so we know that won’t have gone to them posting it to that category of people sending, if you are treating, would you say under 16, or under fourteens, any children that you’re seeing that they should get the list of this is who can consent for the child,

Sarah Tribe: 25:28

I would, because you’re not going to know whether that child is going it competent, or they’re sitting in front of you. So I would send it to anybody under under 16, okay, so that the person will come. And then you can decide, actually, this child can consent by themselves. So you don’t need to come again, thank you. But you won’t know until they’re sitting in front of you.

Katie Bell: 25:50

And then having risks and benefits either a one per treatment modality that you might use. So if you were a physio, and you were saying we’re going to do some soft tissue work, but you also might use some acupuncture, or it might be that you’re using a shockwave machine, and then a cut in an appointment, you might do all of those three things. For example, you will be wanting to have risks and benefits for each each one in an advice sheet and then saying, um, your notes, risks and benefits given to each treatment

Sarah Tribe: 26:23

modality. Yeah. Yeah. And you could even put version, you know, risks and benefits for acupuncture version one given for them to read. Yeah. So then you keep you just keep that it just saves you go, is what physios do we all talk about, you know, is it okay, I’m going to do this. And, you know, you might feel a little bit sore afterwards. And all of these things that we say, you can write them all down if you want to and your notes, but we know that that were time poor. So it’s just easier to have sheets, and just give them to the patient. And then you’ve got to evidence that you’ve given them to the patient, if the patient chooses not to read them, that’s entirely up to them, that you have given them and also in the format. So this is about knowing your, your population, this is what you need to do them in a different language, all of these sorts of things as well. I mean, you may, it may be that you need to know, if you didn’t even in a different language, you’d no need to know where to get go and get that you don’t have to have them all in different languages in your clinic, but on the one rare occasion, but you need to be able to evidence that you know where you could go and get that language? And would you hope you get it?

Katie Bell: 27:36

Would you be giving them a as a physical sheet to take away? Or can you just have a copy that you’re showing them within your clinic? clinic? Yeah. Because, you know, all these clinics that we work with are you know, we’re desperately trying to move to paperless. We’re desperately trying to either improve the way we do things. So it’s good for our listeners to really go okay, that’s what I saw it absolutely need.

Sarah Tribe: 28:01

Yeah, to keep in the clinic, and just use them in your clinic for them to read. And they can ask any questions that you don’t need to give them to go away with, apart from the acupuncture one, which I think off the top of my head, I think is quite a detailed. Form. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Bell: 28:20

So this has been so so useful. Have you got Is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners around informed consent that I haven’t asked you? I haven’t covered? You

Sarah Tribe: 28:30

know, I think you’ve asked me some really good questions. And, yeah, no, I think you’ve really made it clear. And, you know, you just need to think about your portfolio of evidence. And think about all of those things that you’ve just said, if you’ve got all of those in place, then you have gained informed consent.

Katie Bell: 28:54

And actually, it’s funny how your emotions at the start of this podcast can fit. I’m a business owner, you know, I am this person that’s going Oh, my goodness, panic, panic, panic, have we got it all? And actually, the more that you talk about it, and the more you go for your processes and go, No, we do do that, and that’s okay. Or actually, we’re not doing that it’s not the end of the world that we’re not nothing’s going to, you know, but let’s start doing everything properly. Then, by the end of, of listening to this with you, Sarah, I feel like you know, and so our listeners will,

Sarah Tribe: 29:25

hopefully, they will, they will exactly, you feel very overwhelmed at the beginning, but when you talk about it, it makes sense. And you think, Oh, yes, advertising, I do do that. But perhaps I could document that a bit better, or I could do that or whatever. But if you’ve got all those things in place, you can be really assured that you’ve got informed consent. And then if there is a claim, if there is somebody, you’ve got such a good portfolio of evidence you would stand in such good stead. But just always remember that you’re not going to be up there telling the person but I do that anyway. And I say no to that, and because if it’s not written down didn’t,

Katie Bell: 30:03

yeah, what what a great way to finish there. So I have loved this, I always love speaking to you and Sandra, how can our listeners because they’re all going to be thinking, oh, there’s so many things that I’m not doing and I need to I need to do, how can they get your help Sarah, where would they go to?

Sarah Tribe: 30:21

Okay? Well, if they want to buy, we’ve got everything on the store. And if they want to go down that route and buy it, and it comes with calls, and we will, again support you, then very happy to give a 10% discount code. So people need to email me, Sarah with an H at HCP g.co.uk. And I will give you a voucher, a discount voucher for you to go into the store. Or you can just go on to the store, have a good look round. Our website is hcpg.co.uk. Go on our website. There’s lots of free information, we do a blog every month. So I think I’ve just done the last one was an infection prevention and control. So you can go and read and we ask for questions. So there’s lots of information there that’s free, you can sign up to our free newsletter, bar the website, and then you can go to the store, which is also on the website on a tab, go and have a good look around go and see what what is it what is there, use it as a resource, and buy or book a call with me. And I’d love to hear from you. And we can have a 15 minute free chat. And again, I would like to think that coming on Being feeling overwhelmed. By the end of that, that chat. You’re the physio that Cara, whoever it is, will think you know what I think I’ve got now I’ve got a plan now. And I know there’s somebody there to support me, which is what we’re about, we’re really, you know, we just want every physio we set up this business because we’re passionate about it. We’re passionate about getting physios to understand the regs and the standards and protect themselves and protect the patients. And you know, this is a great we love physios. It’s a wonderful profession. And we just want to make sure that we want to take we want to be our ideal would be every physio will be conscious and competent. What

Katie Bell: 32:17

a great mission statement. Sara, thank you so much for giving up your very valuable time to come and talk to my listeners. I’ve learned loads, I’m sure they’ve learned loads, I’ll pop all of the the links that you’ve talked about Sarah, your email, address the website, onto the show notes, listeners. So please head there. And you can go and book your free chat with Sarah or head to the store and look at some of the things that you’ve got available. So Sarah, thank you again for your time.

Sarah Tribe: 32:44

Thank you very much, Katie, thank you so much for this opportunity. Very

Katie Bell: 32:47

welcome. I look forward to seeing you all again next week listeners on our next episode of the treat your business podcast for now. Have a superb rest of your day. Thank you for listening to treat your business with Katie Bell, the podcast that tells you what you really need to hear. And now when it comes to running a successful business in the health and wellness industry that gives you the time, money and freedom that you are wanting for access to our free workshops on how to get more clients in your business, how to make more income in the next 30 days. And to get more time back in your business and life. Head to our free Facebook group today. Treat your business or head over to thrive dash business coaching.com All of the links are available in the show notes.